Greek Government Press Briefing, 98-06-02

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From: The Hellenic Ministry of Press & Mass Media <http://www.minpress.gr/>

YPOYRGEIO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS

Aqhna, 2 Ioynioy 1998

H ENHMERWSH TWN POLITIKWN SYNTAKTWN KAI TWN ANTAPOKRITWN JENOY TYPOY APO TON YPOYRGO TYPOY & MESWN MAZIKHS ENHMERWSHS KAI KYBERNHTIKO EKPROSWPO DHMHTRH REPPA

Geia sas. Akoyw tis erwthseis sas.

MIXAHL: Yioqetei h Kybernhsh ta osa eipe o Ypoyrgos Ejwterikwn k. Pagkalos gia ton k. Xrhsto Papoytsh;

REPPAS: Yparxei ena qema edw, to opoio qelw na to sxoliasw. O k. Papoytshs me tis dhlwseis toy yperebh ta oria, entos twn opoiwn prepei na kineitai logw ths qesews toy. Idiaiterws h anafora toy sthn poiothta, to hqos kai thn aisqhtikh toy k. Pagkaloy einai anepityxhs kai anepitrepth. O k. Pagkalos exei teqei kat` epanalhch ypo thn krish toy ellhnikoy laoy, exei tyxei ths epidokimasias toy ellhnikoy laoy, maxetai yper twn ellhnikwn symferontwn se olo ton kosmo, ws Ypoyrgos Ejwterikwn, exei diakriqei s` ayth thn prospaqeia thn opoia kanei kai nomizw oti oloi anagnwrizoyn pws o logos kai h drasthriothta toy einai se apolyth eyqygrammish me thn yperaspish twn symferontwn ths xwras mas. Den prepei, loipon, otan oydeis exei amfisbhthsei ayta ta stoixeia ths proswpikothtas toy k. Pagkaloy, na akoygontai fwnes oi opoies adikoyn ton k. Pagkalo, adikoyn th nohmosynh kai thn koinh logikh. Nomizw oti den einai swsto na proseggizoyme thn politikh me tetoioys tropoys, oi opoioi telikws yponomeyoyn ayth thn idia thn ajia ths politikhs.

MIXAHL: Epitrecte moy na sas parathrhsw oti o k. Papoytshs, me ayta poy lete oti yperebh ta oria, apanthse sta osa toy katamartyrhse o k. Pagkalos gia ta osa eixe anaferei sth synenteyjh.

REPPAS: Einai allo pragma o politikos dialogos kai allo oi xarakthrismoi. Kai o k. Papoytshs einai Epitropos ths Eyrwpaikhs Enwshs. Milhsa gia th qesh toy poy orizei kai to plaisio entos toy opoioy kineitai o Epitropos mias xwras poy symmetexei sthn Eyrwpaikh Epitroph kai exei sygkekrimena kaqhkonta kai prosdiorismeno rolo. Ws stelexos, politiko h kommatiko, o kaqenas mporei na anaptyssei tis apoceis toy entos twn organwn poy yparxoyn. Ayto ginetai. Kai malista, thn teleytaia periodo sto PASOK, qa elega oti ginetai me enan tetoio tropo o opoios einai monadikos kai prwtofanhs.

MIXAHL: O k. Pagkalos synesthse ston k. Papoytsh oti an qelei na leei thn apoch toy na paraithqei. Qelw na rwthsw, prwton, an o k. Papoytshs exei thn empistosynh ths Kybernhshs. Kai deyteron, h Kybernhsh yioqetei thn protroph toy k. Pagkaloy na paraithqei;

REPPAS: H erwthsh sas ayth agnoei h parakamptei to qesmiko plaisio basei toy opoioy leitoyrgei h Eyrwpaikh Epitroph. Enas Epitropos o opoios exei dioristei, exei mia sygkekrimenh qhteia thn opoia mporei na dianysei kai na oloklhrwsei. Einai qema toy k. Papoytsh na kanei mia allh epilogh.

MIXAHL: An einai etsi, opws ta lete, tote piqanotata kai o k. Pagkalos na mhn jerei akribws to plaisio ths qhteias, dedomenoy oti toy zhthse na paraithqei prin to telos ths qhteias toy.

REPPAS: Ayto akribws eipa ki egw, oti einai qema toy k. Papoytsh na apofasisei ti qa prajei.

MIXAHL: Nai, alla o k. Pagkalos ton proetrece. Kai epipleon, den moy apanthsate an h Kybernhsh peribalei me empistosynh ton k. Papoytsh.

REPPAS: Apanthsa s` ayto to qema.

MOYRTHS: Ektimate oti h xqesinh synenteyjh toy Epitropoy apotelei parembash sta eswterika politika pragmata ths xwras kai ths Kybernhsews;

REPPAS: Apanthsa gi` ayto, legontas oti yperebh to rolo toy.

KARAKWSTAS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, sas problhmatizei to gegonos oti prin apo ligo arketoi boyleytes toy kommatos sas ejefrasan ek diametroy diaforetikh qesh apo ayth poy ekfrasate molis pro oligoy;

REPPAS: Den gnwrizw ti exoyn pei oi synadelfoi. Bebaiws, exoyn to dikaiwma ths gnwmhs toys. Ayto to opoio prepei na einai safes kai to epanalambanw einai toyto: Dinoyme mia maxh gia thn poreia ths Ellados sthn E.E.. Prokeimenoy to apotelesma na einai epityxes, apaiteitai h systrateysh olwn twn dynamewn, giati mono to PASOK kai h paroysa Kybernhsh exoyn th dynatothta na odhghsoyn thn Ellada se mia tetoia epityxh prooptikh. Den epitrepetai na diaspwntai aytes oi dynameis me politikes memcimoiries h kritikes oi opoies telikws mporei na odhghsoyn se kamch twn prospaqeiwn mas h sto na mhn epityxoyme ayto to stoxo, mono kai mono epeidh adynatizei to eswteriko metwpo sth xwra. Kai poly perissotero adynatizei ena kommatiko metwpo, to opoio qa prepei na einai sympages kai arrages, opws einai to metwpo twn dynamewn toy PASOK, poy exoyn thn eyqynh kai thn entolh apo ton ellhniko lao na odhghsoyn me epityxia thn Ellada ston 21o aiwna. Kai ston 21o aiwna o prwtos stoxos ton opoio prepei na epityxei h Ellada einai h isotimh entajh ths, mazi me tis alles xwres ths Eyrwphs, sthn Oikonomikh kai Nomismatikh Enwsh. Den qa prepei, idiaiterws ekeinoi oi opoioi symfwnoyn epi ths arxhs s` ayth thn epilogh kai epiqymoyn -toylaxiston etsi lene- na epityxoyme aytoys toys eqnikhs shmasias stoxoys, me th stash toys ej antikeimenoy na yponomeyoyn ayth thn prooptikh. Giati ta mhnymata ta opoia ejagontai, einai mhnymata antiparaqeshs h mhnymata diafwnias pros mia tetoia koryfaias shmasias epilogh. Kai tetoia mhnymata den prepei na stelnontai apo kanena.

LAKOPOYLOS: Epeidh h katastash poy diamorfwnetai einai oligon paradojh, dhladh o Ypoyrgos Ejwterikwn na apodokimazei ton Epitropo ths xwras -kai alloi Ypoyrgoi- kai h Kybernhsh dia xeilewn sas na kalyptei apolytws ton Ypoyrgo Ejwterikwn, qelw na sas rwthsw an ayto poy prokalese ayth thn antidrash ths Kybernhshs -epeidh milame gia antidrash ths Kybernhshs pleon- einai h synenteyjh toy Epitropoy monon h yparxei kai kati allo poy den gnwrizoyme. Kai an einai h synenteyjh, ti akribws stoixeia, shmeia ths synenteyjhs prokalesan ayth thn antidrash;

REPPAS: Gia ola ayta ta qemata apanthsa. Hmoyn para poly safhs. Oi qeseis toy k. Papoytsh yperebhsan to rolo toy.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Sto proswpo toy k. Papoytsh h Kybernhsh epeleje "geloio Epitropo", symfwna me ayta poy eipe o k. Pagkalos;

REPPAS: Yparxei mia kritikh twn apocewn. Einai allo ayto kai allo h kritikh mias proswpikothtas. Gnwrizete poly kala -kai prepei na eimai safhs s` ayto- oti o k. Papoytshs nomimws einai Epitropos ths Ellados sthn E.E. Kai synexizei na einai Epitropos sthn E.E. Den yparxei opoiodhpote allo qema. Mhn qetete, loipon, tetoia qemata.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Poia einai ta oria poy yperebh o k. Papoytshs;

REPPAS: Apanthsa s` ayto prin. Ta oria ta opoia orizontai apo th qesh kai thn idiothta toy ws Epitropoy ths E.E.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Ti einai ayto poy apagoreyei ston Epitropo na milhsei gia ta eswterika mas;

REPPAS: O kaqenas exei aperiorista to dikaiwma na milaei kata th dikh toy antilhch, na ekfrazei tis apoceis toy, na diatypwnei idees, protaseis. Alla antilambaneste oti se ena systhma to opoio ypakoyei se kanones, prokeimenoy na leitoyrgei apodotika, qa prepei oloi na kinoyntai entos twn oriwn ta opoia prokyptoyn apo thn armodiothta poy toys exei anateqei. Apo kei kai pera, sto plaisio twn eswterikwn diadikasiwn toy PASOK gnwrizete oti h dynatothta ayth exei doqei aploxera se oloys na lene thn apoch toys. Qa elega oti ginetai kataxrhsh ayths ths dynatothtas thn opoia exoyn ta stelexh, pleon, na lene thn apoch toys. Pragma to opoio einai prwtofanes. Den synebaine sto parelqon kati analogo.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Dhladh, otan lete "ginetai kataxrhsh", prepei na perimenoyme kapoio Peiqarxiko;

REPPAS: Den yparxei tetoio qema. Kaqenas leei tis apoceis toy kai o ellhnikos laos mas krinei oloys. Kai kapoioys o ellhnikos laos toys exei krinei kat` epanalhch kai toys exei krinei epidokimazontas thn paroysia toys.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: Moy ekane entypwsh oti gia prwth fora kanete logo gia yponomeytes ths kybernhtikhs prooptikhs, apeyqynomenos sth legomenh kommatikh antipoliteysh kai ej aformhs twn dhlwsewn toy k. Papoytsh. Eipate: "yponomeyoyn ej antikeimenoy ayth thn prooptikh". H Kybernhsh, loipon, diapistwnei oti sto eswteriko ths yparxoyn yponomeytes. Qa toys afhsei na droyn, qa toys proteinei na symmorfwqoyn h qa parei metra enantion toys;

REPPAS: Eipa kai epanalambanw oti polles apoceis poy diatypwnontai, mporei na eklhfqoyn ws mhnyma tetoio to opoio odhgei se yponomeysh ths prospaqeias, prokeimenoy h Ellada na epityxei ton megalhs shmasias stoxo poy exei qesei, sthn arxh toy neoy aiwna. Ayto eipa. Apo kei kai pera, bebaiws, o kaqenas leei tis apoceis toy eleyqera. Kai epishmainw ayto to opoio eipa molis prin: Oti to dikaiwma ayto exei xrhsimopoihqei kata koron apo ta stelexh toy PASOK se ola ta epipeda, na lene akwlyta, anempodista tis apoceis toys. Alla milhsa gia ta mhnymata ta opoia ekpempontai kai ta symperasmata ta opoia mporei kapoios na ejagei, otan oi apoceis diatypwnontai me ayto to yfos, me ayton ton tropo epi twn sygkekrimenwn qematwn.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: Stoys "kapoioys" poy mporei na ejagoyn ayto to symperasma, entassetai kai h Kybernhsh;

REPPAS: H Kybernhsh exei sygkekrimenh politikh. Ta stelexh ths Kybernhshs oxi mono aspazontai ayth thn politikh, alla prwtagwnistoyn, prokeimenoy h politikh ayth na parei sarka kai osta.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: Syggnwmh, den me katalabate. Stoys "kapoioys" poy mporei na ejagoyn to symperasma oti h kybernhtikh politikh yponomeyetai apo kybernhtikoys boyleytes h stelexh toy kommatos ...

REPPAS: Epanalambanete mia ekfrash thn opoia den eipa egw. Sas eipa oti h yponomeysh prokyptei ej antikeimenoy apo apoceis oi opoies, otan diatypwnontai epi twn qematwn aytwn me ayto ton tropo, mporei na odhghsoyn sthn ejagwgh aytwn twn symperasmatwn. Ayto eipa kai to epanalambanw gia na mhn yparxei paranohsh.

MPOGIOPOYLOS: H Kybernhsh ejagei to symperasma oti oi apoceis oi opoies akoygontai, thn yponomeyoyn;

REPPAS: H Kybernhsh niwqei isxyrh thn pleiochfia poy th sthrizei sth Boylh, prokeimenoy na oloklhrwsei to ergo poy ths exei anaqesei o ellhnikos laos. Me ayth thn ennoia, h Kybernhsh den niwqei opoiadhpote epikindynothta na exei prokycei, oson afora th dynatothta ths na oloklhrwsei to ergo ths.

ELENOPOYLOS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, toso gia thn apanthsh sas peri yponomeytwn, oso kai gia toys xarakthrismoys poy apedoqhsan ...

REPPAS: Pali eseis epanalambanete th lejh "yponomeytes", thn opoia egw den eipa. Den milhsa gi` ayto.

ELENOPOYLOS: Jexnate h qelete na jexnate oti oi apoceis exoyn foreis;

REPPAS: Oi apoceis exoyn foreis kai oi foreis exoyn mia sygkekrimenh entolh, panw ap' ola na sthrijoyn mia sygkekrimenh kybernhsh poy einai foreas ths laikhs entolhs, prokeimenoy na efarmosei mia sygkekrimenh politikh. Ayto einai to plaisio, o koinos topos ston opoion synantiomaste oloi.

ELENOPOYLOS: Epomenws, exoyn kai thn eyqynh ekfrashs twn apocewn. Ara to proswpo kai h apoch sthn paroysa periptwsh, taytizetai. Giati den lete, loipon, oti pragmati mporei na yparxoyn kai yponomeytes.

REPPAS: Poia einai h erwthsh poy kanete;

ELENOPOYLOS: Ayth. Gia thn opoia qeloyme mia apanthsh.

REPPAS: Poia einai h apanthsh thn opoia qelete, na sas th dwsw eyxaristws. Ti qelete akribws, ti sas dieykolynei; Me sygxwreite, para poly. Eipa thn politikh qesh epi toy sygkekrimenoy qematos. Eseis qelete mia diatypwsh h opoia dieykolynei na bgalete ena diko sas politiko symperasma. Ta symperasmata einai dika sas, allwste den yparxei periorismos kai elegxos gia to eidos twn symperasmatwn ta opoia ejagontai synhqws meta apo tetoies syzhthseis, alla qa moy epitrecete na exw kai egw to dikaiwma na diatypwnw me sygkekrimenes lejeis kai oroys tis politikes qeseis mas.

KACAMPELHS: Mhpws me ola ayta poy lete, etsi opws ta lete, h den ta lete, anazhta h kybernhtikh hgesia, thn opoia ekfrazete, apo twra alloqi gia mellontikes apotyxies kai httes;

REPPAS: Den prokeitai na yparjoyn mellontikes apotyxies kai httes, ara den xreiazetai na anazhtoyme alloqi. To bebaio einai oti to 2000 poy qa kriqoyme kai pali se pragmatikh bash apo ton ellhniko lao, qa epidokimastei h prospaqeia mas. To ergo mas qa ajiologhqei apo ton ellhniko lao kai qa exoyme kai pali th qetikh chfo toy.

KACAMPELHS: Toyto shmainei, kyrie Ypoyrge, oti sthn ypoqetikh periptwsh poy xaqoyn oi ekloges, den qa ftaine oi apoceis poy ekfrazontai apo aytoys poy ekfrazontai, opws ekfrazontai shmera.

REPPAS: Ma, den prokeitai na xaqoyn oi ekloges. Den yparxei tetoio endexomeno. Kai gi` ayto akribws akoloyqoyme mia politikh, prokeimenoy na kerdisoyme tis ekloges. Den nomizw na yparxei kybernhsh, h opoia feretai me enan tetoio tropo, wste h idia na epidiwkei na xasei tis ekloges. H Kybernhsh epidiwkei na kerdisei tis ekloges, alla sth bash kapoiwn arxwn kai proypoqesewn, poy einai apolyta synarthmenes me to symferon ths xwras kai thn prooptikh toy ellhnikoy laoy. Me ayth thn ennoia qeloyme na kerdisoyme tis ekloges. H ejoysia gia mas den einai aytoskopos. Qeloyme na yphrethsoyme to eqnos, thn koinwnia mas kai ton ellhniko lao. Na epidokimastei ayth h prospaqeia mas me ta apotelesmata ta opoia tote qa einai plhrh kai orata apo ton ellhniko lao, prokeimenoy na mas anateqei ek neoy h diakybernhsh toy topoy, to 2000.

MOYRTZHS: Kyrie Ekproswpe, o k. Pagkalos diatypwse mia taytologia anamesa sthn ka Paparhga kai ston k. Papoytsh. Eipe oti "einai san na akoyw thn ka Paparhga otan mila o k. Papoytshs". To zhthma einai, me dedomeno oti eseis eipate oti o k. Papoytshs yperebh to rolo toy, ean briskete politika ojymwro na einai kapoios ypoyrgos ths KOMMISSION kai parallhla na antistrateyetai thn politikh ths;

REPPAS: Einai safh ta osa eipa. Eipa oti h poreia mas einai prodiagrammenh. Qeloyme na epityxoyme thn isotimh entajh mas sthn Oikonomikh kai Nomismatikh Enwsh. Den einai dynaton na yponomeyetai amesws h emmesws ayth h prospaqeia mas, h opoia qa prepei na einai epityxhs gia to kalo toy topoy, gia to kalo olwn mas.

ELENOPOYLOS: An h kybernhtikh hgesia, o Prwqypoyrgos, eseis, kybernhtika stelexh ektimate oti estw kai emmesws mesw mias topoqethshs, mias apochs, mias ektimhshs, mias praktikhs, mias energeias, otidhpote, kanei ena stelexos sas, to opoio anatrepei, dhmioyrgei empodia, klonizei, otidhpote, th dikh sas kybernhtikh protash, praktikh, apofash, otidhpote, tote giati den bgainete eyqews na peite oti emeis ayth thn prajh thn kataggelloyme;

REPPAS: Einai dyo pragmata. To ena einai h entolh poy exei h Kybernhsh apo ton ellhniko lao na kybernhsei. H kybernhsh ayth sthrizetai sthn koinoboyleytikh pleiochfia poy diaqetei, h opoia ths epitrepei na synexisei kai na oloklhrwsei to ergo ths. To allo qema exei sxesh me tis apoceis oi opoies ekfrazontai. Sto plaisio ths ekfrashs twn apocewn, poy bebaiws h ekfrash ayth einai eleyqerh kai anempodisth, polles apoceis h parathrhseis mporei na odhghsoyn sthn ejagwgh tetoiwn symperasmatwn, wste kapoioi tritoi na poyn oti h prospaqeia ayth, thn opoia kanei h ellhnikh Kybernhsh, yponomeyetai epeidh ekfrazontai aytes oi apoceis. Ayto eipa kai to epanalambanw. Apo kei kai pera to meizon qema, to kyrio qema, einai h sthrijh poy exei h Kybernhsh apo to synolo twn koinoboyleytikwn dynamewn toy PASOK, prokeimenoy na oloklhrwsei to ergo ths. Ayto einai safes kai h sthrijh ayth, efoson prosferetai me thn chfo twn boyleytwn sth Boylh twn Ellhnwn, qa prepei na ekfrazetai se ola ta epipeda kai me kaqe tropo, prokeimenoy na dieykolynqei h Kybernhsh sto ergo ths. Den einai dynato na sthrizeis mia kybernhsh kai taytoxronws na epiqymeis thn apotyxia ths kybernhshs thn opoia sthrizeis. Ayto einai adianohto kai den symbainei. Den mporei na symbainei. Opoios sthrizei mia kybernhsh epiqymei na epityxei h kybernhsh sto rolo ths, na oloklhrwsei to ergo ths me epityxia. To aytonohto kai logiko epanalambanw.

KIAOS: S` ayto to teleytaio poy eipate, epeidh o k. Pagkalos, xqes, eipe "den mporoyn na briskontai sthn hgesia enos kommatos kai na mhn sthrizoyn thn kybernhsh poy sthrizei to komma ayto".

REPPAS: Apanthsa molis prin kai eipa oti aytoi oi opoioi sthrizoyn thn Kybernhsh qa prepei na th sthrizoyn peran ths chfoy toys kai me kaqe allo prosforo tropo prokeimenoy me epityxia na oloklhrwsei to ergo ths. Aytonohto einai ayto, den lew kati kainoyrgio.

KIAOS: Sth xqesinh tetrawrh syskech poy egine sto Majimoy, ths Kybernhtikhs Epitrophs kai ths Politikhs Grammateias, estw kai akroqigws, kapoios h kapoioi anaferqhkan stis apoceis toy k. Papoytsh oti eksygxronismos den ginetai me MAT;

REPPAS: To sxoliasa, xqes kai oloi symfwnoyme oti eksygxronismos den ginetai me MAT. Alla ayto den exei kamia sxesh me th shmerinh pragmatikothta sth xwra mas. O sxoliasmos o opoios egine apo arketoys symmetexontes s` ayth th syzhthsh, htan epikritikos. Oti, dhladh, den einai dynato na akoygontai tetoies fwnes enantion ths kybernhtikhs politikhs, poly perissotero poy h Kybernhsh ston tomea ayto, kaqe allo para mporei na ginei stoxos kathgorias, oti mesw twn MAT prospaqei na efarmosei thn politikh ths.

KIAOS: Kai kati akoma. Ean qewreite oti h apoch "na balei myalo giati an den balei kapoios qa toy balei" klp. ean ayto apotelei politiko dialogo, politikh antiparaqesh h oxi.

REPPAS: Apanthsa gia ola ayta ta qemata. O kaqenas exei ena diko toy tropo na ekfrazetai. Nomizw oti einai entos toy plaisioy poy ginetai o dialogos, pleon, sthn Ellada. Kai nomizw oti den amfisbhtei kapoios thn entimothta, thn ikanothta, to hqos, thn poiothta, den meiwnei thn proswpikothta enos alloy, otan milaei me ena tetoio tropo, o opoios bebaiws, exei to idiaitero, to proswpiko xrwma toy omiloyntos, alla den einai logos katafronhtikos.

KIAOS: An akoysate dhlwseis stelexwn toy PASOK, shmera, sto radiofwno.

REPPAS: Den exw ypoch moy dhlwseis poy exoyn ginei. Isxyoyn -an exoyn ginei, oi dhlwseis, opoies ki an einai- ta osa eipa prin, an qelete na kanw ena geniko sxolio. Milhsa ektetamena gi` ayto to qema.

PARIS: Xqes, gia allh mia fora, h K.E. nomizw gia trith h tetarth fora, apofasise na poylhsei thn Ionikh Trapeza, omofwna. Hqela na rwthsw ta ejhs: Antimetwpizei h Kybernhsh toso megalo problhma, wste na yparxei anagkh ayths ths epibebaiwshs ; Oi proqesmies, oi opoies yparxoyn mesa s` ayto to mhna apo th genikh syneleysh twn metoxwn ths Emporikhs, isxyoyn; Kai, telos, yparxoyn mesa se aytes tis hmeromhnies oi dynatothtes na poylhqei, ean poylhqei, h Ionikh se mia timh h opoia den qa antapokrinetai sto megeqos kai sthn ajia ths.

REPPAS: H Kybernhsh exei apofasisei thn pwlhsh ths Ionikhs Trapezas. H apofash ayth qa efarmostei. Einai apofash poy exei lhfqei omofwna. Sthrizetai apo ola ta stelexh, oxi mono ayta ta opoia symmeteixan sto organo to opoio elabe gia prwth fora thn apofash, alla apo ola ekeina ta stelexh ta opoia exoyn mia emplokh s` ayth th diadikasia, gia na oloklhrwqei h metabibash toy pleiochfikoy paketoy metoxwn ths Ionikhs Trapezas. Den noiwqei h Kybernhsh kapoia idiaiterh anagkh na dhlwnei kaqhmerina ayth th qesh. To kanei, omws, epeidh prokyptoyn erwthmata ta opoia qetoyn ta M.M.E., eseis edw. To xronodiagramma poy exoyme qesei qa thrhqei. Bebaiws qa ginei h syneleysh twn metoxwn stis 19 Ioynioy, prokeimenoy na labei thn telikh apofash gia logariasmo ths Emporikhs Trapezas poy einai o pwlhths. H diadikasia qa exei enan xarakthra diagwnismoy. H metabibash toy pleiochfikoy paketoy twn metoxwn qa ginei me diafanh tropo, mesw toy Xrhmatisthrioy. Qa oloklhrwqei h diadikasia ayth to syntomotero dynaton. Na eiste bebaioi gi' ayto. Den yparxei tipota, to opoio mporei na drasei parelkystika kai na odhghsei se anabolh h anastolh efarmoghs ayths ths politikhs apofashs. Pisteyoyme oti o kyklos syzhthsewn, o opoios anoigei metajy Kybernhshs kai ekproswpwn twn ergazomenwn qa kleisei syntoma kai me epityxia, giati kat` epanalhch exoyme pei oti epiqymoyme na symbaloyn kai oi ergazomenoi wste na oloklhrwqei h pwlhsh ths Ionikhs Trapezas s' ena tetoio epipedo poy na antapokrinetai sthn pragmatikh ajia ths Trapezas. Exoyme epishs kat' epanalhch sxoliasei pws arnhtika fainomena kai antidraseis san aytes poy parathroyntai tis teleytaies hmeres, odhgoyn se apajiwsh ths Trapezas, efoson synexistoyn. Me ayth thn ennoia, epiqymoyme me synennohsh , xwris prokatalhceis kai xwris na ypokyptoyme se skopimothtes, oles oi pleyres na symbaloyme wste to qema ths pwlhshs ths Ionikhs Trapezas na antimetwpistei me ton kalytero tropo pros to symferon twn metoxwn ths Trapezas, ths Trapezas kai toy ellhnikoy trapezikoy systhmatos, enocei twn newn synqhkwn poy dhmioyrgoyntai. Ara, loipon, den allazei tipota sta osa exoyme anakoinwseis. Dhmosieymata ta opoia exw kai egw ypoch moy, prepei na pw oti den antapokrinontai sthn alhqeia. Teqhke ena qema apotimhshs ths ajias ths Trapezas. Den yfistatai tetoio qema. Mia tetoia diadikasia afora idrymata, organismoys kai epixeirhseis poy einai ektos Xrhmatisthrioy kai prepei na broyme ena tropo na prosdiorisoyme thn ajia toys. Den exei omws, kamia sxesh ayto me th sygkekrimenh periptwsh. Den gnwrizw gia poio logo kapoioi qetoyn tetoia qemata. Den exoyn kamia bash kai qa prepei na apofeygontai giati blaptoyn mia qesh poy exei megalh shmasia, me dedomeno to pws exoyn ejelixqei mexri twra ta pragmata.

PARIS: Oson afora genikotera thn kybernhtikh twn idiwtikopoihsewn, den diapistwnei h Kybernhsh oti afhnei arketo xrono na perasei, opws egine p.x. me thn periptwsh ths OLYMPIAKHS gia thn opoia kathgoreiste oti kanate pisw. Mhpws ayta ta pragmata qa mporoysan na ginoyn me kapoio allo tropo, me mia kalyterh synennohsh me toys ergazomenoys;

REPPAS: Einai kai ayto ena qema kritikhs. Kapoioi mas kathgoroyn oti biazomaste kai aifnidiazoyme, kapoioi alloi mas kathgoroyn oti kaqysteroyme h den epideiknyoyme thn analogh apotelesmatikothta. Alla, prepei na pw oti kai oi dyo aytes kritikes qeseis, den einai orqes. Emeis qa prepei afenos na thrhsoyme tis nomikes diadikasies poy problepontai gia kaqe periptwsh, kai afeteroy qa prepei na ejantlhsoyme tis dynatothtes mesa apo dialogo kai synennohsh gia th synergasia olwn twn pleyrwn, prokeimenoy to egxeirhma se kaqe periptwsh na stefqei apo epityxia. Ayto kanoyme.

PAPADOPOYLOS: Gia na einai pio oloklhrwmenes oi apoceis sas, mporeite na mas peite ean exete kapoia desmeysh enanti ths Alfa Pistews toy k. Kwstopoyloy gia thn pwlhsh sto sygkekrimeno agorasth;

REPPAS: Apolytws kamia. Osa anagrafontai einai entelws anypostata. Apolytws kamia desmeysh den exei h Kybernhsh. Otan miloyme gia mia anoikth, diafanh, diagwnistikoy xarakthra diadikasia, pws einai dynaton, ek twn proterwn, na exeis analabei kapoia desmeysh;

PAPADOPOYLOS: Eseis desmeyeste, twra, me ayta poy lete. Giati an pwlhqei h Ionikh ston k. Kwstopoylo, ayta poy lete den qa isxyoyn.

REPPAS: Apolytws. Kaqe endiaferomenos, o opoios qa proselqei kai qa labei meros s` ayth th diadikasia, qa kriqei me bash toys oroys poy ek twn proterwn exoyn teqei. Den einai dynaton, ek twn proterwn, na apokleisoyme kapoion, opws, ek twn proterwn, mhn perimenete na exei h Kybernhsh odhghqei se epilogh kapoioy. Den yparxei periptwsh h Kybernhsh na deijei mia idiaiterh stash, filikh pros kapoion, opws kai den deixnei exqrikh stash pros kapoion. H Kybernhsh einai antikeimenikh kai menei ejw apo to endiaferon twn proswpwn. Yperaspizetai kapoioys kanones, basei twn opoiwn epiqymei na oloklhrwqei ayth h diadikasia.

GARGALAKOS: Akoysthkan, xqes, epikriseis kata toy k. Giannoy Papantwnioy, sxetika me kapoioys xeirismoys toy REPPAS: Apanthsa gi` ayta ta qemata , xqes, k. Gargalako.

GARGALAKOS: Yparxoyn, omws, sxetika dhmosieymata.

REPPAS: Den qa elega oti akoysthkan epikriseis. Kaqe allo, doqentos oti o ypoyrgos Eqnikhs Oikonomias exei analabei to kyrio baros enos ergoy para poly shmantikoy, poy afora idiwtikopoihseis. Nomizw oti oi epishmanseis, oi sxoliasmoi, oi parathrhsei poy eginan sto plaisio ayths th synedriashs, opws kaqe fora, einai xrhsimes giati proseggizoyn to qema me to idiaitero skeptiko poy o kaqenas anaptyssei. Alla, to proseggizoyn apo mia tetoia skopia, wste na bohqhqei h olh prospaqeia thn opoia kataballei to ypoyrgeio Eqnikhs Oikonomias kai ta alla ypoyrgeia, h Kybernhsh, dhladh, entelei, gia na oloklhrwqei me epityxia ayth h diadikasia.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, xqes, o k. Pagkalos, h ka Papandreoy kai o k. Tsoxatzopoylos den epekrinan ton ypoyrgo Eqnikhs Oikonomias;

REPPAS: Den ton epekrinan, k. Stamatopoyle.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Ti toy eipan;

REPPAS: Apanthsa se ola ayta. Qelete na einai anoiktes aytes oi synedriaseis h qelete edw na sas dianemw ta praktika twn synedriasewn;

STAMATOPOYLOS: Oxi, na mas enhmerwnete qeloyme.

REPPAS: Sas enhmerwnw plhrws.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Den mas enhmerwsate, ta maqame apo alloy.

REPPAS: Sas lew oti den egine kamia epikrish. Den maqate tipota. Ola ayta ta opoia grafontai peri epikrisewn, den antapokrinontai sthn alhqeia.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Mas paraplhroforhsan oi Ypoyrgoi poy htan mesa;

REPPAS: Den gnwrizw poioi sas plhroforhsan h sas paraplhroforhsan. Egw, epeidh hmoyn parwn, sas lew me ayqentiko kai prwtogenh tropo ti syzhthqhke. Kai sas lew oti epikriseis den diatypwqhkan. Eipa, kat` epanalhch, oti yparxei to proswpiko "xrwma" poy dinei o kaqenas, otan analyei ena qema, otan anaptyssei to skeptiko toy. Ayto den shmainei oti yparxei politikh diafwnia. Giati eseis otan milate gia toys xeirismoys h gia tis epishmanseis, sto plaisio aytwn twn synedriasewn, qelete na anadeijete to shmeio ths politikhs diafwnias. Sas lew, loipon, oti den yparxei politikh diafwnia kai den yparxei kai ypostrwma, gia na anaptyxqei politikh diafwnia. Eimai safhs.

STAMATOPOYLOS: O k. Laliwths eipe ston Prwqypoyrgo oti enhmerwnetai ek twn ysterwn;

REPPAS: Den eqese tetoio qema o k. Laliwths. O k. Laliwths einai stelexos poy symmetexei oxi mono sto Ypoyrgiko Symboylio, alla kai sthn Politikh Grammateia kai sthn Kybernhtikh Epitroph. Kai gnwrizei o k. Laliwths oti exoyme labei tis apofaseis mas gia to sygkekrimeno qema, edw kai arketoys mhnes. Den einai dynaton, loipon, na exei qesei ena tetoio qema. O k. Laliwths, opws kai ta alla stelexh, me idiaitero endiaferon, prokeimenoy na oloklhrwqei to egxeirhma ayto me epityxia, ekanan tis epishmanseis toys, gia to ti prepei na kanoyme apo edw kai pera. Allwste, otan sygkaleitai mia synedriash, aytoi poy lambanoyn meros sth synedriash, prepei na ekfrasoyn tis apoceis toys. Den einai boyba proswpa. Den qa prepei na kanoyn tis epishmanseis toys; Giati symmetexoyn se mia synedriash; Gia na mhn poyn tipota; Den arnoymai na apanthsw, kaqe allo. Arnoymai na dexqw ayto poy eseis qewreite ws dedomeno, ws pragmatiko, enw egw poly kala gnwrizw oti den einai. Kai qelete na epiballete se emena mia "alhqeia", h opoia einai kataskeyasmenh, den yparxei para mono sth fantasia kapoiwn. Dioti hmoyn parwn se ayth th synedriash kai gnwrizw ti syzhthqhke.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Aytes tis epishmanseis qelame na mas peite, tis opoies den mas eipate kai tis maqame apo alloy.

REPPAS: Apanthsa gia ola ayta, k. Stamatopoyle kai eimai bebaios oti den exete plhroforhqei tipota, apo osa isxyrizeste shmera oti exete plhroforhqei.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Oxi monon egw, alla kai alloi synadelfoi ta grafoyn shmera.

MOYRTZHS: Doylecan oi "kykloi".

REPPAS: Ti na kanoyme; Yparxei gonimh fantasia, poly paragwgikh.

MIXAHL: To kako einai oti den einai sthn ejoysia h fantasia...

KOGIANNHS: Pote den htan sthn ejoysia h fantasia...

REPPAS: Nai, alla mhn paradwsoyme, omws kai thn ejoysia sth fantasia sas kai exete mono th fantasia sas na sas trofodotei. As deite kai thn pragmatikothta.

PARIS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, qa hqela na epistrecw sto qema ths Ionikhs: Epeidh h praktikh sto ejwteriko einai, oti otan kapoios endiaferomenos gia enan organismo h mia trapeza dinei mia synenteyjh, to mhnyma to opoio bgainei einai oti aytos "odhgei thn koyrsa". Ayth einai mia taktikh, h opoia synhqizetai sto ejwteriko. Kai epeidh edw sthn Ellada, ayto einai kati kainoyrgio, h synenteyjh toy k. Kwstopoyloy, h opoia sthn oysia ebale kai toys oroys toy paixnidioy, posa skeftetai na plhrwsei k.lp.; Qa hqela ena sxolio apo thn Kybernhsh, sas problhmatise; To blepete san kati...

REPPAS: Prwta ap' ola den exei zhthsei thn egkrish ths Kybernhshs gia na dwsei synenteyjh o k. Kwstopoylos, oyte eprokeito na ginei ayto. Deyteron, den einai dynaton h Kybernhsh, otan kapoios dinei synenteyjh gia opoiodhpote qema, na qewrei oti h synenteyjh ayth periexei kai thn politikh ths kai desmeyei thn Kybernhsh. Poly perissotero, otan gia to sygkekrimeno zhthma gnwrizete poly kala oti h Kybernhsh, poly prin exei anakoinwsei to plaisio ths politikhs ths, wste na mhn mporei na kathgorhqei pws erxetai ek twn ysterwn na ryqmisei ena qema, me bash ta osa exoyn dhmosiws eyxhqei kapoioi poy piqanws endiaferontai. H Kybernhsh exei orisei toys kanones. Me bash aytoys toys kanones qa kriqoyn oi endiaferomenoi. Elpizoyme h ejelijh ayths ths diadikasias na einai tetoia, wste na apobei pros to symferon olwn. Kai otan lew olwn, ennow olwn. Giati h Ellada, h ellhnikh koinwnia kai oi pelates ths Ionikhs exoyn anagkh apo enan sfrighlo trapeziko organismo.

PARIS: Kai ena deytero skelos: H epiqymia ths agoras, h opoia s' ayth th fash, toylaxiston, ekfrazei thn apoch oti ena " pantrema" ths Ionikhs me thn Pistews, qa htan kalo. Ayto h Kybernhsh me dikh ths epilogh den qa to diapragmateyotan;

REPPAS: H Kybernhsh exei anaqesei thn ekponhsh meletwn se Oikoys poy einai ejeidikeymenoi se ayto to antikeimeno. Exei melethsei ta porismata. H Kybernhsh elabe ayth thn apofash, h opoia antapokrinetai, sto megalytero dynato baqmo, sta symferonta toy trapezikoy systhmatos, ths Emporikhs kai ths Ionikhs.

MOYRTZHS: O ypoyrgos Dhmosias Tajews k. Rwmaios eklhqh sto Megaro Majimoy gia synanthsh me ton Prwqypoyrgo. To erwthma moy einai, an sxetizetai h episkech toy ayth me to qema ths Ionikhs h me to qema ths diafqoras, sxetika me ta dyo kroysmata poy eixame shmera sthn Astynomia, opoy o Astynomikos Dieyqynths ths Xioy nomizw piasthke "sta prasa" giati zhtoyse "miza" apo ena katasthma mpiliardoy h kai me ton astynomiko poy lhstece Trapeza;

REPPAS: H synanthsh ayth me ton k. Rwmaio eixe allo antikeimeno kai periexomeno. Einai mia syskech sthn opoia symmetexoyn kai alloi paragontes kai o k. Papadopoylos. Ayth h synergasia toy Prwqypoyrgoy me toys armodioys paragontes afora allo qema. Den afora ayth h synanthsh ta qemata poy eqese o k. Moyrtzhs. Eixe allo antikeimeno kai periexomeno.

MOYRTZHS: Ayto to qema ths diafqoras to gnwrizete;

REPPAS: Den afora ayth h syskech ta qemata poy qesate eseis. Exw aytes tis plhrofories, opws tis exete ki eseis. Pisteyw oti ta organa toy kratoys qa prepei na dinoyn to paradeigma stoys alloys polites me th stash kai th symperifora toys. Qa prepei na einai paradeigmatikh h timwria ekeinwn, oi opoioi parabainoyn ton orko toys kai probainoyn se tetoies energeies, giati ayto apaitei, peran twn nomwn, kai to koino aisqhma. Ola ayta, efoson bebaiws, ta armodia organa poy qa epilhfqoyn twn qematwn, apofanqoyn oti pragmati exoyn adikopraghsei oi sygkekrimenoi paragontes.

STAMATOPOYLOS: Anhsyxoyn thn Kybernhsh oi drasthriothtes twn Moysoylmanwn ths Qrakhs, metajy twn opoiwn kai boyleytwn, oi teleytaies drasthriothtes;

REPPAS: Exw sxoliasei ta sxetika qemata. H Kybernhsh parakoloyqei pantote me endiaferon pws ejelissetai h zwh sth Qrakh, giati gnwrizete oti ekei kaname poly megala bhmata. Jefygame apo ena kaqestws to opoio yphrxe epi dekaeties, prokeimenoy na apodwsoyme dikaiwmata stoys polites, toys Moysoylmanoys kata to qrhskeyma, oi opoioi prepei na dexqoyme oti ta prohgoymena xronia esteroynto kapoiwn dikaiwmatwn poy eixan oi alloi Ellhnes polites. Sto plaisio ths isopoliteias kai ths isonomias, thn opoia presbeyei h Kybernhsh mas, prepei na pw oti exoyme kanei shmantika bhmata. Oson afora, ta qemata ta opoia qetete, qa epanalabw mia frash kai mono: Exoyn gnwsh oi fylakes.

KWNSTANTINIDHS: Mia poy eteqh ayto to qema, qa hqela na sxoliasete mia dhlwsh poy ekane o Moysoylmanos boyleyths toy PASOK Gkalip, o opoios oyte ligo, oyte poly, eipe oti "h Ellada einai prwtogonh afrikanikh xwra". Kai einai ekproswpos toy ellhnikoy Koinoboylioy.

REPPAS: Einai ekproswpos toy ellhnikoy laoy kai symmetexei sto Koinoboylio. Oi boyleytes proerxontai apo ton ellhniko lao. Kai h Ellada, gnwrizete poly kala, oti einai mia xwra, h opoia, metajy twn allwn, einai xwra toy NATO, einai xwra ths E.E. symmetexei se alloys dieqneis organismoys. Ayto thn kanei na exei mia epizhlh qesh sth dieqnh zwh. Mia qesh thn opoia para polloi qa zhleyan. H qesh ths Elladas -qa elega- einai mia qesh, h opoia apotelei timh kai gia emas toys Ellhnes. Einai mia xwra h opoia diakrinetai. Den einai mia xwra sto periqwrio ths dieqnoys zwhs.

KIAOS: Kyrie Ypoyrge, o Arxiepiskopos Xristodoylos, meta toys "graikyloys" kai diafora synafh, eipe oti "qa synexisw kai as peirazei orismenoys" kai synexizei na parembainei. Pws blepete ws Kybernhsh thn parembash ayth;

REPPAS: H Kybernhsh kanei to ergo ths me ton tropo poy qewrei oti einai o kalyteros. To oti oi paragontes ths dhmosias zwhs ths xwras ekfrazoyn tis apoceis toys gia diafora qemata, ayto einai kai qemito kai epitrepto kai den enoxlei thn Kybernhsh. H Kybernhsh yperaspizetai mono to Syntagma kai toys nomoys, oi opoioi prepei na ginontai sebastoi. H Kybernhsh yperaspizetai kai to dikaiwma twn ekproswpwn toy laoy, poy einai eklegmenoi apo ton ellhniko lao kai exoyn sygkekrimenh entolh gia mia orismenh qhteia, na lene ki ekeinoi tis apoceis toys kai na pairnoyn tis apofaseis toys, me gnwmona to symferon ths xwras kai toy ellhnikoy laoy. Giati oi Ellhnes politikoi, panw apo ola, epidiwkoyn -ayth thn ejoysiodothsh exoyn apo ton ellhniko lao- na ejyphrethsoyn ton ellhniko lao. Kai o ellhnikos laos exei th dynatothta na toys anakalei, efoson krinei ws anepityxh th qhteia toys. Kai ayto einai ena pronomio to opoio exoyn monon oi politikoi kai oydeis allos. To epanalambanw ayto kai prepei na einai safes.

Eyxaristw poly.

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