[01] G.Papandreoy: Se adiejodo h xwra

``O Proypologismos toy 2008, apotelei grapth apodeijh ths kybernhtikhs apotyxias. Shmera ton katachfizoyme sth Boylh kai ayrio, mazi me toys polites, qa ton anatrecoyme sta metwpa ths koinwnias, ekei poy qa gracoyme mia nea eqnikh kai koinwnikh symfwnia gia thn anasyntajh ths Elladas'' tonise sth lhjh ths omilias toy o proedros toy PASOK.

Aporriptontas tis aitiaseis ths kybernhshs oti oi prowqoymenes metarryqmiseis apoteloyn monodromo, o Giwrgos Papandreoy eipe oti kati tetoio synista ``myqo ths dieqnoys synthrhshs poy katarriptetai''. Apantwntas de, ston Aleko Alabano (o opoios eixe yposthrijei oti h politikh ths kybernhshs sto Asfalistiko moiazei me ekeinh ths periodoy Shmith), parathrhse pws ``prokeitai gia th logikh "oloi idioi einai"''.

``Me to nomo Reppa ke Alabano, wfelhqhke h syntriptikh pleiochfia twn ergazomenwn kai twn syntajioyxwn. An efarmozotan sto synolo toy, den qa eixame ta shmerina adiejoda. H kybernhsh ton efarmozei a la kart'' anefere o Giwrgos Papandreoy.

Sth makra omilia toy, o proedros toy PASOK, anaferqhke sto synolo ths kybernhtikhs politikhs, h opoia, opws tonise, ``exei balei th xwra se adiejodo'':

``Den yparxei sxedio. Den synennooyntai oi ypoyrgoi. Yphresies allhloanairoyntai. Politikes allazoyn analoga me ton ypoyrgo. H diafqora orgiazei. H logikh toy kratoys lafyro gia toys hmeteroys despozei. O xoros twn xrhmatwn, twn promhqeiwn, twn ejagorwn kai twn pwlhsewn, ths xeiragwghshs twn dhmokratikwn qesmwn, ths diaplokhs, kala kratei'' anefere o kos Papandreoy. Prokeimenoy de na sthrijei toys isxyrismoys toy aytoys, epikalesthke seira dedomenwn, opws ta parakatw:

- Den yparxoyn kwdikoi gia th dioikhtikh metarryqmish. Ta parabola twn metanastwn synistoyn thn kalyterh phgh xrhmatodothshs gia toys OTA

- Apo to 2004, ayjhqhkan kata 61%, oi paragwgikes dapanes toy kratoys, 55000 neoi ypallhloi exoyn proslhfqei sto steno dhmosio tomea, xwris na exoyn stelexwqei oi krisimoi tomeis ths ygeias, ths paideias kai ths pronoias.

- H akribeia qriambeyei anejelegkth, enw h Epitroph Antagwnismoy, ypostelexwmenh, exei panw apo 400 ypoqeseis poy ekkremoyn gia elegxo.

- Oi foroi twn politwn exoyn ayjhqei kata 3 dis. se sxesh me to 2004, enw ta nomika proswpa plhrwnoyn ligotero foro apo to 2004

- Ta elleimmata twn DEKO paroysiazoyn ayjhsh 444%

- To PASOK afhse to IKA me pleonasma 1,3 dis. eyrw kai shmera exei elleimma 1,5 dis. eyrw.

- H ``Olympiakh'' apajiwqhke epi 4 xronia kai fortwqhke me nea xreh kai elleimmata panw apo 470 ek. eyrw.

- Ta elleimmata twn nosokomeiwn epi ND exoyn fqasei ta 3 dis. eyrw kai den emfanizontai ston Proypologismo.

Peran twn parapanw, o proedros toy PASOK, anarwthqhke: ``Se sygkrish me to 2004, h xwra mas einai perissotero h ligotero isxyrh, asfalhs h dikaih; Poios megalos stoxos epiteyxqhke san aytoys poy petyxe to PASOK, apokentrwsh, ESY, ASEP, KEP klp. Poies hsan oi metarryqmiseis ths ND gia thn enisxysh toy koinwnikoy kratoys poy parelabe; Poies metarryqmiseis eginan poy ejyphrethsan tis anagkes toy mesoy Ellhna kai oxi tis anagkes tis dikes sas kai toy koymparoy;

Sth synexeia, o proedros toy PASOK, anefere tis protaseis toy PASOK, gia ``eniaia proodeytikh, timariqmopoihmenh forologikh klimaka'' poy qa perilambanei kai ta dianemomena kerdh twn nomikwn proswpwn kai twn proswpikwn etaireiwn, xamhlo syntelesth forologhshs gia ta antistoixa adianemhta kerdh, diathrhsh toy elegxoy twn DEKO apo to Dhmosio, dynamikes parembaseis sto dhmografiko kai dieyrynsh ths agoras ergasias. Epanelabe tis protaseis toy gia mia nea anaptyjiakh wqhsh mesw ths ``prasinhs oikonomias'', anejarthsia ths politikhs apo to mayro xrhma, ta megala symferonta, ta MME kai ta poikilwnyma ejwqesmika kentra, kathgorwntas thn kybernhsh gia elleich boylhshs na patajei th diafqora. Epemeine telos, sto aithma toy gia systash Ejetastikhs Epitrophs poy qa diereynhsei to skandalo twn omologwn.

Synenteyjh Loykas Katselh sto APE-MPE

Koinwnikh ekrhjh, h opoia qa proelqei apo ta mesaia strwmata, ta opoia synqlibontai apo thn oikonomikh politikh ths kybernhshs, problepei h ka Loyka Katselh, boyleyths Epikrateias toy PASOK, ypeyqynh gia thn Oikonomia kai genikh eishghtria toy Kinhmatos sth syzhthsh toy proypologismoy toy epomenoy etoys, se synenteyjh ths sto APE-MPE.

H ka Katselh anaferomenh sth syzhthsh toy proypologismoy tonise oti to PASOK apodomhse thn politikh ths ND, apedeije oti h shmerinh katastash "einai aporroia sygkekrimenwn oikonomikwn epilogwn" kai anedeije th dikh toy antiprotash se kaqe oikonomikh epilogh ths kybernhshs.

Anaferei epishs oti anti toy antagwnismoy leitoyrgei ena "kartel epixeirhsewn kai politikes enarmonishs timwn pros ofelos sygkekrimenwn epixeirhmatikwn symferontwn".

Sxetika me to Asfalistiko h ka Katselh tonizei oti to problhma den entopizetai sta asfalistika dikaiwmata, alla stoys poroys toy systhmatos kai problepei pws an synexistei h politikh ths mh xrhmatodothshs, poy efarmozei shmera h kybernhsh, qa yparjei megalo problhma sta Tameia gyrw sto 2030. Kai se o,ti afora sth qesh toy PASOK epishmainei, metajy allwn, oti einai yper ths stadiakhs enopoihshs twn tameiwn kai oxi yper toy symchfismoy kai ths enopoihshs twn elleimmatwn, opws epixeirei h kybernhsh.

H ka Katselh aporriptei thn apoch oti to PASOK den askei eparkh antipoliteysh kai apodidei thn entypwsh ayth sto gegonos oti ta MME den probaloyn tis qeseis toy Kinhmatos. "O,ti kai na leme, den pernaei me tipota sta MME", anaferei xarakthristika.

H synenteyjh ths kas Loykas Katselh sto APE - MPE sto Basilh Moyrth exei ws ejhs:

ER: H Oikonomia htan to adynato shmeio toy PASOK thn prohgoymenh tetraetia. Den edwse peistikes lyseis. Oyte kai twra deixnei na proteinei kati allo kai periorizetai se epimeroys anafores kai kritikh ths Kybernhshs. Den qelete na analabete desmeyseis h den exete symfwnhsei akoma poia oikonomikh politikh qa proteinete;

L. KATSELH: Den qa symfwnoysa me thn ektimhsh sas. Apo ton Maio toy 2007 alla poly pio dynamika toys teleytaioys dyo mhnes, to PASOK proxwraei, ejeidikeyei kai epikoinwnei to programma toy, to opoio dystyxws den eixame th dynatothta na to gnwstopoihsoyme eparkws prin tis ekloges. To programma ayto einai ena shmeio anaforas gia oloys. Proteinei ena diaforetiko anaptyjiako protypo poy sthrizetai sthn koinwnia ths gnwshs kai thn "prasinh oikonomia". Proypoqetei thn anadiarqrwsh toy Programmatos Dhmosiwn Ependysewn kai mia nea domh toy forologikoy systhmatos. Periexei protaseis gia to asfalistiko, gia tis dhmosies epixeirhseis strathgikhs shmasias, kaqws kai gia epimeroys qemata poy aptontai sygkekrimenwn krisimwn tomewn politikhs, opws h paideia, h ygeia klp. Epomenws exoyme ena ajiopisto kai symfwnhmeno plaisio. H proklhsh gia kaqe tomea toys epomenoys mhnes einai na ejeidikeysoyme tis protaseis mas akoma perissotero kai kyriws na syzhthsoyme epimeroys ptyxes toy me oloys toys koinwnikoys foreis. Oi parembaseis poy kaname sth Boylh, kata th syzhthsh toy proypologismoy, katadeiknyoyn ayth thn poreia. Katorqwsame na apodomhsoyme thn politikh ths Neas Dhmokratias. Na apodeijoyme oti h shmerinh katastash einai aporroia sygkekrimenwn oikonomikwn epilogwn. Na protajoyme th dikh mas antiprotash se kaqe oikonomikh epilogh ths Kybernhshs

ER: To PASOK efarmose dyo arketa diaforetikes oikonomikes politikes, ths oktaetias 1981-1989 kai ths oktaetias 1996-2004, poia apo tis dyo epilegete shmera;

L. Katselh: Prwta ap' ola yparxoyn polles ypoperiodoi, katw apo diaforetikes sygkyries. Alles oi proteraiothtes politikhs thn periodo 1981-1985, kai alles to 1996-2000 h to 2000-2004.

Se kaqe periodo, h oikonomikh politikh poy efarmosthke elabe ypoch ths toso th dieqnh oso kai thn egxwria sygkyria.

Proexei epomenws na doyme poy briskomaste shmera, poy qeloyme na pame kai poios einai o kalyteros tropos na pame ekei. Shmera antimetwpizoyme mia seira kyriarxa problhmata ta opoia prepei na ta antimetwpisoyme.

Prwton yparxei megalo elleimma antagwnistikothtas. Zoyme se ena dieqnes periballon, opoy o antagwnismos ginetai oloena kai pio entonos toso apo tis geitonikes mas xwres, oso kai apo nees anadyomenes oikonomies oi opoies katalambanoyn ayjanomena meridia ths agoras.

Gia na antapejelqei h Ellada se ayto to dieqnes oikonomiko periballon prepei na exei poly jekaqarh eqnikh anaptyjiakh stoxeysh. Ayth einai h prwth mas megalh diafora apo th Nea Dhmokratia.

Deytero, prepei na ependysoyme poly perissotero stoys anqrwpinoys poroys stis ypodomes , sthn ereyna kai kainotomia. Prepei na anadeijoyme to periballon se sygkritiko pleonekthma ths Elladas.

H Ellada mporei na ginei enas polos eljhs epixeirhsewn kai epixeirhmatikwn drasthriothtwn gia olh thn eyryterh perioxh. Gia na yposthrijoyme omws aytes tis epiloges prepei na kataneimoyme tis dapanes antistoixa kai na eisagoyme forologika kinhtra poy qa tis yposthrizoyn analoga . Prepei, kai mporoyme epishs na prowqhsoyme ena plegma synergasiwn strathgikhs shmasias me ton idiwtiko tomea, wste na yphrethsoyme apo koinoy ayto to stoxo.

Ara epeidh me rwthsate poia apo tis oikonomikes politikes toy parelqontos qa epelega shmera, qa sas elega, metra dokimasmena apo kaqe periodo poy apantoyn omws sta problhmata toy shmera kai toy ayrio.

ER. : Toso epi PASOK oso kai epi Neas Dhmokratias to AEP paroysiase ayjhsh panw apo 4% to xrono. Pws ginetai parola ayta ta eisodhmata na meiwnontai; Kai milame gia ta xamhla eisodhmata.

L. KATSELH: Prepei na epishmanoyme oti hdh exei syntelesqei mia epibradynsh ths oikonomikhs drasthriothtas. Shmera o ryqmos ayjhshs toy AEP kineitai katw apo to 4% gyrw sto 3,8-3,9%. Mia apo tis kritikes poy askoyme sthn Kybernhsh afora sthn forologia toy kefalaioy. Ap' oles tis anaptygmenes xwres, eimaste mia apo tis dyo h treis poy epiballoyme toso megalo foro sthn ergasia se sxesh me to kefalaio dhmioyrgwntas antikinhtra gia thn apasxolhsh . Epeidh de ayth h politikh den synodeyetai apo politikes gia meiwsh ths grafeiokratias, ths diafqoras, h ayjhsh ths paragwgikothtas ths dioikhshs klp., ta kerdh poy prokyptoyn apo th meiwsh ths forologias toy kefalaioy den metafrazontai se nees paragwgikes ependyseis, alla kyriws se ychlh kerdoforia kai eisodhmata gi aytoys poy exoyn merismata.

Ayto einai ena apo ta megala problhmata ths oikonomikhs politikhs ths kybernhshs: Den exei kataferei na dhmioyrghsei pragmatika kinhtra gia ependyseis. Gi' ayto blepoyme tis trapezes na exoyn ayth th stigmh 11 dis kerdh, kai na kateyqynoyn oloena kai mikrotero meridio aytwn twn kerdwn se epixeirhseis.

H apanthsh sto erwthma sas epomenws einai oti ean synexisqei h idia politikh, qa yparjei peraiterw meiwsh toy eisodhmatos apo ergasia se sxesh me ta kerdh kai peraiterw syrriknwsh toy diaqesimoy eisodhmatos kai ths agorastikhs dynamhs twn xamhlwn kai mesaiwn oikonomikwn strwmatwn.

ER: O antagwnismos oxi mono den sygkrathse tis times, alla tis ayjhse. Den doyleyei gia ton katanalwth, alla gia ton epixeirhmatia. Mporei ayto na allajei; Kai pws h oikonomia qa leitoyrghsei pros ofelos toy aploy polith katanalwth;

L. KATSELH: Poly wraio erwthma. Mono poy den leitoyrgei o antagwnismos kai, ekei akribws brisketai to problhma. Ayto poy blepoyme den einai antagwnismos. Einai kartel epixeirhsewn kai politikes enarmonishs timwn pros ofelos sygkekrimenwn idiwtikwn symferontwn. Stoys perissoteroys kladoys ths ellhnikhs oikonomias, me ejairesh poly ligoys, exoyme se kaqe klado 5, 10, h poly 15 epixeirhseis me despozoysa qesh eite sthn paragwgh eite sto emporio. Synennooyntai metajy toys kai syxna kai me to idio to kratos, diamorfwnontas tis times kata to dokoyn.Oi times den diamorfwnontai antagwnistika me apotelesma na epwmizetai ayto to baros katanalwths.

Ena kalo paradeigma apotelei h DEH. Ypotiqetai oti anoijame th DEH ston antagwnismo me stoxo th meiwsh twn timwn reymatos Ant'aytoy, parallhla me thn apajiwsh ths epixeirhshs kai anabolh toy ependytikoy ths programmatos, exoyme terastia ayjhsh twn timologiwn, wste na ginei kerdoforos h ependytikh h emporikh drasthriothta idiwtwn ston tomea ths energeias. Ayto den einai antagwnismos, alla sympaignia metajy toy dhmosioy tomea kai sygkekrimenwn idiwtikwn symferontwn.

Dystyxws h Epitroph Antagwnismoy, shmera ypoleitoyrgei me 400 peripoy ekkremeis kataggelies kai xwris dynatothta apotelesmatikhs parembashs.

ER: Gia to asfalistiko, xreiazontai allages kai poies; Arkei h efarmogh toy legomenoy nomoy Reppa;

L. KATSELH: Mexri shmera den eixame , kanena oysiastiko dialogo gia to asfalistiko. H kybernhsh ekane ena prosxhmatiko monologo me genikologes ejaggelies xwris na paroysiasei oloklhrwmenh protash.

To asfalistiko apotelei se ayth th sygkyria phgh anasfaleias gia oloys toys Ellhnes.

Ejartatai amesa apo toys ryqmoys anaptyjhs sto mellon, kai apo tis dhmografikes ejelijeis poy qa prosdiorisoyn ta esoda kai toys poroys poy qa sthrijoyn ta opoia dikaiwmata. Ara h syzhthsh gia to asfalistiko synartatai amesa me tis anaptyjiakes prooptikes ths ellhnikhs oikonomias. Prepei, loipon, na exoyme sta xeria mas analogistikes meletes gia to synolo toy asfalistikoy systhmatos poy qa ejetasoyn tis dynatothtes poy diagrafontai sto plaisio twn makroxroniwn oikonomikwn ejelijewn.

To deytero zhthma poy tiqetai einai an to problhma estiazetai sthn pleyra twn dikaiwmatwn h twn porwn. Kata th gnwmh mas estiazetai kyriws sthn pleyra twn porwn.

Ayto htan ena apo ta epiteygmata toy Nomoy Reppa: h ypoxrewsh toy kratoys na kataballei 1% ethsiws sta asfalistika tameia. H Kybernhsh den exei apodwsei toys ofeilomenoys poroys sta tameia.

Mporei h kybernhsh na apodidei kaqysterhmena to 2008 to 1% sto IKA, alla oi poroi aytoi einai poly ligoi se sygkrish me tis anagkes poy exoyn ta tameia, kai poy shmera jepernoyn ta 8 dis, Parallhla prepei na ejetastei poly prosektika kai na lhfqoyn apotelesmatika metra gia thn eisforodiafygh.

To trito krisimo zhthma afora sta asfalistika dikaiwmata. Gia mas ayta prepei na diasfalistoyn apotelesmatika me parallhlh enisxysh ths antapodotikothtas toy systhmatos. Prepei na yparjei orqologikopoihsh twn "kinhtrwn asfalishs", me ejasfalish mias basikhs syntajhs kai oxi mono enos mikroy pronomiakoy tmhmatos, opws proteinei h N.D.

Symfwna me oles tis ektimhseis qa yparjei problhma sta asfalistika tameia gyrw sto 2030. Gi' ayto proteinoyme th systash enos "Eqnikoy Tameioy Allhleggyhs Genewn" sto opoio qa eisreoyn poroi apo thn pwlhsh perioysiakwn stoixeiwn toy Dhmosioy, metoxopoihseis, esoda k.l.p.. Proteinetai oi poroi aytoi, na kleidwqoyn gia mia dekaetia wste na apotelesoyn prosqetoys poroys gia enisxysh twn tameiwn otan kai efoson paroysiastei problhma.

Eimaste epishs proqymoi na koybentiasoyme zhthmata orqologikopoihshs kai apotelesmatikhs leitoyrgias twn tameiwn kai na proteinoyme stadiakes enopoihseis twn tameiwn, oxi omws symchfismo kai enopoihsh elleimmatwn kai pleonasmatwn. Skopos ths enopoihshs den einai na baloyme to xeri baqia sta pleonasmatika tameia alla, prwta na ejygianoyme ta elleimmatika Tameia kai meta na ginei synenwsh, etsi wste na yparjei pio apotelesmatikh diaxeirish.

ER : To asfalistiko afora kai to endexomeno meiwshs twn syntajewn. Protiqeste na kanete dialogo gi ayto to endexomeno;

L. KATSELH: H prowqhsh einai na diathrhsoyme ta dikaiwmata sto shmerino epipedo kai meta na beltiwsoyme kai tis syntajeis. O plhqwrismos kineitai sto 4% peripoy. Mia ayjhsh syntajewn kata 4% gia to 2008 aplws kalyptei ton plhqwrismo.

Parameiname sto dialogo gia na prostateysoyme oso ginetai ta eisodhmata apo syntajeis twn mesaiwn kai xamhlwn eisodhmatikwn strwmatwn. .Pisteyoyme oti me thn politikh ths, h Kybernhsh exei balei mia bradyflegh bomba sta qemelia ths koinwnias. Peripoy 2,5 ekatommyria noikokyria den ta bgazoyn pia pera. Den exoyn th dynatothta na apotamieysoyn tipota gia meta. Ayth h katastash prepei na anatrapei, dioti qa exoyme syntoma koinwnikh ekrhjh sthn Ellada. H koinwnikh ekrhjh den qa erqei apo ta xamhla eisodhmatika strwmata ta opoia oytws h allws exoyn synqlibei , alla apo th mesaia tajh.

ER : Yparxei mia aisqhsh oti to PASOK sthn Oikonomia askei mia anepaisqhth antipoliteysh. Poy pisteyete oti ofeiletai ayto;

L. KATSELH : Antiqeta, pisteyw oti askei mia poly dynamikh antipoliteysh kai ayto einai emfanes apo ta praktika ths olomeleias kai twn epitropwn ths Boylhs. Exete ayth thn entypwsh dioti dystyxws oi qeseis mas den blepoyn to fws ths dhmosiothtas oso qa eprepe. Kai s' ayto exoyn eyqynh kai ta kommata kai ta MME. Se mia xwra me toso megala problhmata opws h Ellada, o dialogos den mporei na synexisei na ginetai mesa ap' "ta thleoptika paraqyra" me ton tropo poy ginetai kai na perimenoyme o poliths na katanohsei tis diaforopoihseis kai na topoqethqei panw se epimeroys zhthmata.

M' ayto ton tropo, mera me th mera, yposkaptoyme th Dhmokratia giati afhnoyme ton polith aplhroforhto. Dhmioyrgeitai ston polith h aisqhsh oti den yparxoyn enallaktikes epiloges kai, epomenws, mh exontas allh diejodo, apajiwnei thn politikh sto synolo ths. Ayto apotelei kindyno gia th Dhmokratia, poy prepei na antimetwpisqei sobara kai apo ta politika kommata kai ta MME.

Aisqanomaste polles fores oti o,ti kai na leme, den pernaei me tipota sta MME. Einai lyphro na kataqetei tropologia to komma ths ajiwmatikhs antipoliteyshs gia ton OTE kai to qema na mhn ginetai eyrytera gnwsto alla antiqeta na ejantleitai h syzhthsh sto epipedo toy koytsompolioy. Na kanoyme protaseis sth Boylh kai oxi mono na mhn gnwstopoioyntai alla na dinetai dhmosiothta se fantastikes proswpikes antidikies klp, Ayto apotelei ypobaqmish ths dhmokratias. Kai gi' ayto exoyme eyqynh oloi mas

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